Q&A sessions

Q&A Sessions

Namaste !!
I am a citizen of India and a student who is studying in the United States. As a pastime, I read up all kinds of news from various sources. The internet has exponentially expanded the amount of knowledge available at one’s fingertips coupled with a certain raw energy of how it is portrayed. A medium which has not yet suffered from the censorship that typically is enforced in print and Audio-visual media. As a result one gets the raw and sometimes uncomfortable truth while browsing the internet. People may not necessarily be politically correct and racial or religious slurs can be easily encountered. While heaping racial or religious slurs is not the nicest way to talk, if one peels off the layers on top, it is interesting to see the feelings associated with it. Many such people post anonymously. But despite that and after you sieve off the nasty language, you get to see a true portrayal of people’s feelings, unjudged by any criteria. Everybody’s deepest darkest desires are available for open inspection. That is the biggest asset of the internet today. Eventually even this great “Wild West” will be brought under control and soon most content will be cleaned, filtered, sweetened and beautified to let us live ignorant but blissful lives. But that is still some time far away yet.
Let me get back to my original thread!!
In India, since childhood, I have been a voracious reader of magazines and news papers. I used to read any book I could lay my hands on. Reader’s digest, business world, Times of India, tinkle, Amar chitra katha, chandamama, encyclopedias…
Since coming to the US, the ubiquity of the internet has exponentially increased my knowledge base and help get a deeper appreciation of foreign events as well. In addition I have had informed debates with different colleagues of mine to get a handle on issues that might be peculiar to their region/religion.
I am going to start below a Q&A session, which was a heated debate with some of my friends with whom I otherwise have a very good relationship. I am writing this up, because I think a lot of Indians tend to create facts out of thin air or do not follow logic, just so that they can have peace of mind. I am writing it up to the extent I can remember and am hopefully making full justice to their point of view as well. I am a reasonable person, so if you can convince me about Facts and figures I will adopt your point of view. I do not judge people, if they do not agree with me and I am not dogmatic or stubborn. So please let me know, if you find loopholes in my arguments.

Based on a discussion with three of my friends

Friend 1: You know what? I heard people make stupid arguments that Muslim population is increasing in India rapidly because one muslim marries 4 women and each women has four children of her own and thus there are 16 children in one family, compared to 2 in a Hindu household.
Me: How is this argument wrong??
Friend 1 : Come on !! Each women still has the same number of children, right? Per head, the number of children is still the same. Only that more than one woman might have the same husband. So obviously they are roughly increasing in the same numbers as hindus.
Me: Hmmm… Well the ratio of the sexes in the population is roughly 50:50, right? So in a group of 100 muslims, on an average there are 50 men and 50 women. Now in this argument we have accepted that 1 muslim man marries 4 women. So that means not more than 12 males can get muslim females. Now that means that there are still a lot muslims males left without female partners. By the way, have you seen a lot of muslims bachelors moving around??
Friend 1: (repeats his previous argument, only shouts it out this time. Says he had logically proven how growth rates in muslims are roughly similar to hindus)
Me: (repeat my argument, try to shout it out as well.)
Me: The remainder of the muslim men therefore seek out women from outside the religion, especially Hinduism, to get married to. Thus the ratio of 1:4 is maintained and each family has 16 children.
Friend 1: Yes, but for every woman, the number of children is still the same. Although it is a cause for concern that the hindu women marry muslims and convert to Islam.
Me: Hindu women marrying and going into islam is a cause for concern, but it is a separate issue, not directly relevant to our discussion. The point is Hindu women marrying into Islam and producing 2-4 children alters the ratio of hindu to muslim growth rate.
Friend 1: It is a problem caused by hindus only. We are to blame if hindu women marry into Islam.
Me: Yes, but that is not the topic we are discussing here. We are talking about growth rate of muslims here.
Friend 1: What are you trying to say that hindus have not increased in numbers as well?? Hindus also breed like rabbits, that is why we are having a huge population to manage in india today.
Me: obviously number of hindus have gone up as well. But growth rate of muslims is higher than hindus
Friend 1: Yes, but we must install some population control measures in general. How can you target muslims ??. Population growth is high in states like Uttar Pradesh Bihar, MP etc? Where are muslims alone the cause? We must concentrate on reducing population in these states in general.
Me: Agreed, We need birth control measures to control the population. Hindus can be convinced to some extent to use contraceptives. But such a measure is rejected by muslims because it hurts their religious sentiments. So they do not allow implementation of birth control
Friend 1: Yes but in UP, Bihar etc. even hindus have 4 children per family.
Me: Despite such explosive growth in hindus, the percentage of muslims in the overall population has increased. Naturally their growth rate is higher. It has been potrayed that by 2050 at this current rates of growth, muslims will become the majority in some states. --
Friend 1: Yes, but such population explosion happens more in poor and uneducated people. Educated muslims have 2 children per family.
Me: It is true that education reduces population growth and uneducated people have more babies than the educated. Amongst educated people the growth rate of muslims would generally be the same as the hindus (actually slightly higher).
Friend 1: Similarly in uneducated people hindus and muslims have the same growth rate.
Me: While uneducated hindus do have more babies, muslims tends have even more babies than that.
Friend 1: yes, But we have to generally control the population. Why are we focusing on the muslims??
Me: Because hindus can still be convinced to use birth control measures, muslims reject any semblance of birth control due to religious reasons.
Friend 1: Look, the only solution to this is education. Educated people tend to have less babies.
Me: True. But muslims generally do not prefer govt schools. They go to madrassas and are consequently illiterate in the knowledge of the present day world. The quran is force fed into them.
Friend 1: Look the govt, should go out and educate everybody.
Me: Yes, but the muslims do not heed to the call. They continue to go to madrassas. Consquently they have no knowledge of the sciences or arts and only know the quran by heart.
Friend 1: Look just stop singling out muslims OK? Stop spreading such hate!!
Me: (Flabbergasted) When did I preach hate?? I am only giving out facts and figures. All I have tried to present so far, is that Muslim growth rate is higher than the hindu growth rate
Friend 1: People like you single out a particular community and cause violence and hate!! All you guys will talk about is cut-chop-kill. Stop this violence and think about India’s progress man !! There are 14 crore muslims in india, you want to eliminate all of them??
Me: (Still reeling from the old accusation, when he hits me with this new one). But I never mentioned the words “cut-chop-kill” anytime during my discussion. I was only trying to present facts I know of. How come you can only think of only violence?? I never suggested violence in any of my statements so far. Why can’t we agree on such a simple fact? Who is talking of eliminating muslims? Can we not agree that the muslim growth is outpacing hindus?? How can you guys think of violence as the only solution? Did any one even suggest Birth Control as a measure??
Friend 1: Look, all muslims are not like that OK? Isn’t Azim premji is a muslim and what about our president Abdul kalam?
Me: Yes, but thay are the exceptions, not the rule. Show me percentages of educated v/s uneducated muslims.
Friend 1: I have studied with as many as 10-12 muslim students in my classroom. They were just as hard working as anybody else.
Me: Again, that is anecdotal evidence. Show me the statistics. Tell me percentage of educated Muslims in India. About 60% of muslims are uneducated in India compared to a 25% illiteracy rate for Hindus (Note: I verified my statement by looking up census figures. The muslims literacy is around 50 % while the hindu literacy is 65%. So the gap is not appaling though significant)
Friend 1: We have so many problems in our country. People are dying of hunger and poverty. We need to tackle that. Rather we talk about muslims needlessly.
Me: But then I am talking of the same issues as well. People need to be taken out of hunger and poverty. The govt has only finite resources. So the first thing we must do is control population growth. But then muslims are not amenable to any talk of birth control. So then how can hunger and povery problems be solved??
Friend 1: (Wishing the problem away) Look if there are too many muslim poor being born they will die of starvation anyway, so why bother?
Me: But then you just said the hunger and poverty have to be tackled, now you are giving up so easily? Besides, no one will die. There will be an armed insurrection if muslims are left out for being poor. They will be more prone to take up violence with a little help from the Pakistanis. The Naxalite problem gives out ample evidence of this (poor and oppressed people taking up arms to get justice)
Friend 1: Our govt is a huge failure. Unlike Western countries we do not have honest sincere leaders.
Me: Our country has gone through a lot of trials and tribulations. No doubt our politicians aren’t the best of the lot. But then this is not Pakistan where some sundry general decides to take over and run the country. The Leaders who are corrupt are the ones we put in place through democratically voted elections. Voted by people like us. So the ball is back in our court!!
Friend 1: Screw it man !! we should throw all the politicians in the trash can!! Some dictator should come and rule over us. Communism is perhaps the best philosophy.
Me: Well as you can see, no communist country was able to survive the 21st century (China being a capitalist in communist clothing). Their ideals were indeed noble but not realistic. In an ideal world we would dream of a wolrd where there is not disctinction based on caste, class, religion or race. But we cannot force-fit that philosophy into the real world. You might take over the world with benevolence in your heart, but once you start forcing decisions down people’s throat, it creates trouble. After all the biggest dictators in the world, Stalin, Hitler etc genuinely had good feelings for their country. But see the number of humans they killed and the death and destruction they caused. Communism is not an option, only an ideal.
Friend 1: We Indians are not United. We are distributed into so many factions and sects. We must unite
Me: (sarcastically) I can see the unity in this room. If four of us cannot agree on a point of view, then why to expect it from indians in general?
Friend 1: (irritatedly) Look. why are you convincing us? Go to India and convince the people there.
Me: If i cannot convince 3 people sitting in the room here, i cannot imagine the job that is awaiting me in india.
Friend 1: (cheekily) Ok, we are convinced. Now you can leave for india.
Me: Ok, I will leave for India. Let's go.
Friend 1: Who me? I am not coming. Why should i come?
Me: But i just thought that you were convinced. So i thought you would come with me to help me do the job.
Friend 1: Look. why are you convincing us... (Argument circles around again!!)

This Q&A illustrates the nature of arguments that take place. I am still open to logical arguments and find them enriching. I also admit that although we had a bitter, noisy discussion, I learnt a lot from it as well. Despite being poles apart in views I continue to cherish the friendship and camaraderie that I enjoy with them.
References:

• http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/2004/01-15Oct04-Print-Edition/011510200495.htm
• http://www.sulekha.com/news/ThreadComment.aspx?cid=545943